Why the 80/10/10 diet is NOT for everyone and not for everywhere and thus is claiming to much...
Well, I think it is time to make a balanced thread about the 80/10/10 diet and it's claims
which, to my opinion, are to generalizing and can't be supported, neither by it's own theory and nor
by any other theory around.
** I will slowly build up this thread with contra-arguments (and pro arguments, as much as I can find.). ,
and will also give SUPPORTING arguments a place.
** ALL people are invited to post about contra- and pro arguments...., i will process these at this
(opening) place, in the beginning of this thread.
** I assume that my contra-arguments are NOT handled by the 80/10/10 - book of Dr. Graham,
which is my main objection against this book: it's basis is to small, and it doesn't handle
enough the main questions which arise against it's statements, which shows a lack of imagination
and a lack of ability for whole integrated proper discussions.
If I am wrong, I will be glad to correct my objections, if people give quotes from the book...
** Don't get me wrong: I also have some big objections against for example Hippocrates Institute,
(they just ignore my mails, lol..) .I am not choosing a side, I only choose for wide discussions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
contra-arguments against 80/10/10:
1. Geographical objections: 80/10/10 doesn't take into account that people are living in
different geographical places. MOST of the fruit in my country is not tree-riped , when bought by the
consumers. Fruit, when eaten unripe and/or not tree-riped, can be a damage for the body, robbing it
of nutrients of high value. If it isn't damaging, at least fruit, not eaten right from the tree/plant etc..
is less than optimal....
Eating tree-riped papaya in the tropics is a whole different thing to value
than the unripe ones having travelled for weeks in a box....
We also can talk about te loss in nutrients during the transport of these fruits..., wintertime (less
fruits...).
(according to Hippocrates institute..).
2. A minor point: The banana-hype.. This is about having critics on others, about
superfoods etc.., but apparently not looking close enough to one´s own behaviour..
- Unfortunately almost all banana's are monocultured hybrides, and the largest amount
of banana's is made from only 2 types (out of all the possible varieties which could exist,
if for money reasons not just a mere 2 types are being brought into production...) .
This makes the total banana population very sensitive for illness: one very good plague,
and it could be over with banana's.
It is always very good, BEFORE having a certain opinion, to try to falsify this belief.
I hope the falsifying of the BANANA HYPE is made possible by this reaction.
Eating many banana's is supporting the killing of biodiversity. Not for everyone.
3. Sweetness of fruit has been changed. MOST of the fruit-producers/tailers never heard from
80/10/10 or natural hygiene. Because sweet fruit sells better than the original less sweeter types
from the past, a lot of fruit is much more sweet than it used to be. This is in flagrant contradiction with
all the arguments natural hygients use, like "natural" and emphesis on the diets from the past.
4. Depleted soils.
NaturalNews) According to U.S. Senate Study Document Number 264, due to agricultural topsoil depletion, 99 percent of Americans are deficient in minerals and trace elements due to food crop topsoil depletion. No big surprise maybe, except this study was reported in 1936! Since then, there have been USA and UK studies that have shown disturbing decreases in the mineral contents of foods from the soil over the past 50 years.
Just keep eating your high fruits, no problem for anyone. But bashingother people for eating high
density foods (spirulina, chlorella etc..) without argumenting about the depletion of our soils, and the l
lack of nutrients in most of our common foods, is a bit without reasoning....
Most of our farmers are not so health-educated as we are, and I say I can't trust their soils to be top-
filled with nutrition.
5. The ape-argument. We should eat like apes, I read... Some also say we should only eat
what we can grab with our hands. If we eat like apes, in the same logica mentioned by these people
there is a good possibility we re-evolve back into apes (you are what you eat...). Everyone
their own pleasure, and some people are better of being apes,
but may we conclude this is not ideal for everyone?
Can I also say apes sometimes kill little animals and eat them? Should we do the same, following
their diet?
Some say we should not eat foods we can't grab. Is there, besides biological similarity between apes
and humans, not something like a difference called CULTURE?
We also make art, why shouldn't we evolve in the way we harvest our food?
Some foods are mentioned for apes and humans, others are ment for humans
which have been evolved in cultural ways..
BTW: Apes also use tools, for example in order to harvest ants with a stick....
6. Age. Where are the older natural hygientists? Yes, you young ones look all
very pretty, I admit (lol..). Mostly because of the fact you don't eat processed- but only whole foods.
But where does it go after the age of 60? I am aslo a little afraid that every natural hygienist
developping cancer or other serious illness , will have no courage to share in his/her community,
because there is only one perfect diet, and if you get cancer you must have done something wrong
etc, because fruit is the most easiest to digest etc.....The intolerance also works WITHIN the own community, there will be no place for so
called "losers", only the prospering will be in the picture..
7. Bashing Hippocrates What most strict diet pushers won't know, why should you study
ouside your own range, is that the OFFICIAL Hippocrates diet is also 80 10 10, only not with high
fruit, but with healthier slow carbohydrates from algae, sprouts, greens etc.....
Before accusing Hippocrates that this is not possible (like Patenaude does, indirectly..)
it could be a good idea to contact them and ask about a breakdown and to explain these numbers.
No, Hippocrates is also not good in outwards communication and keeping an good imago in the
rawfood-world, they just seem to be busy with healing (quite important, not..?)
Ever noticed that almost no-one actively defends or supports the Hippo-diet at this place,
compared to the hyperactive pushing/defending hygienists?
Because the Hippo's know the diet is self-evident, like all things closer to truth...
Further is the accusation of pushing products, when talking about Hippocrates, completely
besides the truth: most of what they advise is not a moneymaker for them (greens, cucumbers, high
sprouts and wheatgrass) and even most of the supplements on their website don't even name the
ingredients, not smart if you want to sell much. Of cause all these points are known and considered
by the one's with negative info about this institute.
*8. Bashing TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) herbs, spices etc...Bashing 5000 years of Chines Medicine, because one person, not even a real Doctor, is
saying herbs are irritating, gives me a weird feeling of imbalance.....
There are thousends of studies about for example curcuma, most of them done by universities
and Doctor's, who don't have interests and benefits in selling this spice....
There is almost no illness which doesn't benefit from Curcuma, neither a bodyfunction
in healthy people which isn't waiting for Curcuma. There is no moneytrack behind these studies, the
same is the case for many other studies about herbs and spices. It is a shame to me
for bashing these beautiful products, and an insult right into the face of a part of our sparkling
natural environment.
9. Environmental objections
I think our environment has changed a lot since the times of our apestadium, ans so an ape-diet
(fruit & greens) is NOT enough to balance the changed environment.
I name a few things like: stress, polution in all natural elements, EMF-radiation...,
So 80 10 10 is not for everyone and everywhere...
* More and more animals are getting cancer now, no matter they are eating their natural diet, without
superfoods! It is not enough for them!!
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17358-hidden-cancer-threat-to...
NO DISCUSSION POINTS:
- Whether we used to be frugivores or ominvores in the past, seems not to be a usefull argument by me.
Our knowledge about food has changed so much since the past, so does our culture.
Relying on the past, is more believing than knowing.
I think the presence should have more weight , the past is gone and with it a big part of the
evidence.
Also, when there should be proof for a specific diet in the past, this doesn't say that our bodies and our circumstances, how they are at this time, NOW, would trive with that same diet.
* To be continued....
which, to my opinion, are to generalizing and can't be supported, neither by it's own theory and nor
by any other theory around.
** I will slowly build up this thread with contra-arguments (and pro arguments, as much as I can find.). ,
and will also give SUPPORTING arguments a place.
** ALL people are invited to post about contra- and pro arguments...., i will process these at this
(opening) place, in the beginning of this thread.
** I assume that my contra-arguments are NOT handled by the 80/10/10 - book of Dr. Graham,
which is my main objection against this book: it's basis is to small, and it doesn't handle
enough the main questions which arise against it's statements, which shows a lack of imagination
and a lack of ability for whole integrated proper discussions.
If I am wrong, I will be glad to correct my objections, if people give quotes from the book...
** Don't get me wrong: I also have some big objections against for example Hippocrates Institute,
(they just ignore my mails, lol..) .I am not choosing a side, I only choose for wide discussions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
contra-arguments against 80/10/10:
1. Geographical objections: 80/10/10 doesn't take into account that people are living in
different geographical places. MOST of the fruit in my country is not tree-riped , when bought by the
consumers. Fruit, when eaten unripe and/or not tree-riped, can be a damage for the body, robbing it
of nutrients of high value. If it isn't damaging, at least fruit, not eaten right from the tree/plant etc..
is less than optimal....
Eating tree-riped papaya in the tropics is a whole different thing to value
than the unripe ones having travelled for weeks in a box....
We also can talk about te loss in nutrients during the transport of these fruits..., wintertime (less
fruits...).
(according to Hippocrates institute..).
2. A minor point: The banana-hype.. This is about having critics on others, about
superfoods etc.., but apparently not looking close enough to one´s own behaviour..
- Unfortunately almost all banana's are monocultured hybrides, and the largest amount
of banana's is made from only 2 types (out of all the possible varieties which could exist,
if for money reasons not just a mere 2 types are being brought into production...) .
This makes the total banana population very sensitive for illness: one very good plague,
and it could be over with banana's.
It is always very good, BEFORE having a certain opinion, to try to falsify this belief.
I hope the falsifying of the BANANA HYPE is made possible by this reaction.
Eating many banana's is supporting the killing of biodiversity. Not for everyone.
3. Sweetness of fruit has been changed. MOST of the fruit-producers/tailers never heard from
80/10/10 or natural hygiene. Because sweet fruit sells better than the original less sweeter types
from the past, a lot of fruit is much more sweet than it used to be. This is in flagrant contradiction with
all the arguments natural hygients use, like "natural" and emphesis on the diets from the past.
4. Depleted soils.
NaturalNews) According to U.S. Senate Study Document Number 264, due to agricultural topsoil depletion, 99 percent of Americans are deficient in minerals and trace elements due to food crop topsoil depletion. No big surprise maybe, except this study was reported in 1936! Since then, there have been USA and UK studies that have shown disturbing decreases in the mineral contents of foods from the soil over the past 50 years.
Just keep eating your high fruits, no problem for anyone. But bashingother people for eating high
density foods (spirulina, chlorella etc..) without argumenting about the depletion of our soils, and the l
lack of nutrients in most of our common foods, is a bit without reasoning....
Most of our farmers are not so health-educated as we are, and I say I can't trust their soils to be top-
filled with nutrition.
5. The ape-argument. We should eat like apes, I read... Some also say we should only eat
what we can grab with our hands. If we eat like apes, in the same logica mentioned by these people
there is a good possibility we re-evolve back into apes (you are what you eat...). Everyone
their own pleasure, and some people are better of being apes,
but may we conclude this is not ideal for everyone?
Can I also say apes sometimes kill little animals and eat them? Should we do the same, following
their diet?
Some say we should not eat foods we can't grab. Is there, besides biological similarity between apes
and humans, not something like a difference called CULTURE?
We also make art, why shouldn't we evolve in the way we harvest our food?
Some foods are mentioned for apes and humans, others are ment for humans
which have been evolved in cultural ways..
BTW: Apes also use tools, for example in order to harvest ants with a stick....
6. Age. Where are the older natural hygientists? Yes, you young ones look all
very pretty, I admit (lol..). Mostly because of the fact you don't eat processed- but only whole foods.
But where does it go after the age of 60? I am aslo a little afraid that every natural hygienist
developping cancer or other serious illness , will have no courage to share in his/her community,
because there is only one perfect diet, and if you get cancer you must have done something wrong
etc, because fruit is the most easiest to digest etc.....The intolerance also works WITHIN the own community, there will be no place for so
called "losers", only the prospering will be in the picture..
7. Bashing Hippocrates What most strict diet pushers won't know, why should you study
ouside your own range, is that the OFFICIAL Hippocrates diet is also 80 10 10, only not with high
fruit, but with healthier slow carbohydrates from algae, sprouts, greens etc.....
Before accusing Hippocrates that this is not possible (like Patenaude does, indirectly..)
it could be a good idea to contact them and ask about a breakdown and to explain these numbers.
No, Hippocrates is also not good in outwards communication and keeping an good imago in the
rawfood-world, they just seem to be busy with healing (quite important, not..?)
Ever noticed that almost no-one actively defends or supports the Hippo-diet at this place,
compared to the hyperactive pushing/defending hygienists?
Because the Hippo's know the diet is self-evident, like all things closer to truth...
Further is the accusation of pushing products, when talking about Hippocrates, completely
besides the truth: most of what they advise is not a moneymaker for them (greens, cucumbers, high
sprouts and wheatgrass) and even most of the supplements on their website don't even name the
ingredients, not smart if you want to sell much. Of cause all these points are known and considered
by the one's with negative info about this institute.
*8. Bashing TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) herbs, spices etc...Bashing 5000 years of Chines Medicine, because one person, not even a real Doctor, is
saying herbs are irritating, gives me a weird feeling of imbalance.....
There are thousends of studies about for example curcuma, most of them done by universities
and Doctor's, who don't have interests and benefits in selling this spice....
There is almost no illness which doesn't benefit from Curcuma, neither a bodyfunction
in healthy people which isn't waiting for Curcuma. There is no moneytrack behind these studies, the
same is the case for many other studies about herbs and spices. It is a shame to me
for bashing these beautiful products, and an insult right into the face of a part of our sparkling
natural environment.
9. Environmental objections
I think our environment has changed a lot since the times of our apestadium, ans so an ape-diet
(fruit & greens) is NOT enough to balance the changed environment.
I name a few things like: stress, polution in all natural elements, EMF-radiation...,
So 80 10 10 is not for everyone and everywhere...
* More and more animals are getting cancer now, no matter they are eating their natural diet, without
superfoods! It is not enough for them!!
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17358-hidden-cancer-threat-to...
NO DISCUSSION POINTS:
- Whether we used to be frugivores or ominvores in the past, seems not to be a usefull argument by me.
Our knowledge about food has changed so much since the past, so does our culture.
Relying on the past, is more believing than knowing.
I think the presence should have more weight , the past is gone and with it a big part of the
evidence.
Also, when there should be proof for a specific diet in the past, this doesn't say that our bodies and our circumstances, how they are at this time, NOW, would trive with that same diet.
* To be continued....
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Rawgreengoddess on -
i love how chinese herbs are supporting my health ,i was a die hard 811 eater,i even had 3 goes at getting it 'right'(for 12 months each time)...it just doesnt work for my health,i got more depleted the longer i stayed eating very high fruit.
I over ate,i was always hungry,i gained weight,i got blood sugar highs and crashing lows,which lead to adrenal fatigue and an overworked pancreas...
I see what you mean about long term high fruit eaters,how are they going to look,feel are they going to thrive.I wish them well,i just know for myself,it isnt feasible,as much as i stuck to it,because i thought it was the 'ideal' way to eat raw..I had to change or get more ill.
Now it is 3 weeks,eating lower fruit,so much lower,high greens,high vegs,unsweet fruits,lovely raw fats from avos,young coconuts,seeds and soaked nuts,even some lovely sprouts,and sometimes a little dulse leaf....And it feels like someone turned the lights on,i feel incredible,i am happier,i feel steadier with my energy and my moods,more grounded,and the fat is slowly melting off,its awesome..My athletic prowess is getting better and better and my recovery is quicker,with less muscle aches.
I would much rather offer my body the most support i can~than dig my heels in and stick to an ideal,that was slowly killing me ....
Find your own way,what feels good for you?be strong,find your own way in eating Raw and love it,embrace it and thrive.
Wishing you all the best of health,which ever path you take.:)
xo
-
Permalink Reply by telefunken on -
We are fortunate to have your energy and honesty here RG. (no....I won't stop praising you....sorry!)
-
Permalink Reply by Rawgreengoddess on
-
thanks Tele,love ya right back,and front ;)
thanks Mark,good to know i never know if anyone reading it...i just keep blabbing on lol...the truth,and my word,if im stripped of everything in my life,at least i would have that,and a good sense of humor.xo
-
Permalink Reply by Michele on -
RGG, babe, you are such a rare and glorious mix of great qualities: love, humility, courageousness to speak the truth, compassion, love, beauty, fun personality,,good grief, Charlie Brown, is there anything you don't have? LOL :)
-
Permalink Reply by Rawgreengoddess on
-
Shels,you are too kind (as Loren would say...),thank you this is humbling...love you xo
-
Permalink Reply by Mark on -
Well Said, Thank you for your wonderful summary,
I really appriciate your point of view and will check your blog regulary, please keep the turth prespective as you have in this post.
Thank you.
-
Permalink Reply by Loren Lockman on -
I agree with Telefunken (love your handle!) in appreciating RGG's post(s) and also I appreciate everyone's perspective here. I have several issues with 811, including the fact that any such plan can pretend that there's a one-size fits all solution.
Having said that, I eat a very high fruit diet, And do believe that ultimately, this is optimal for the human body. My experience may be unique here in that I have personally supervised thousands of water-only fasts, most lasting 21 days or more, as well as having done quite a bit of personal fasting.
Additionally, I've taken more than 100 people through a 17-week internship program where they started with a 21-day water fast and 7 days refeeding as a guest here, and then spent 13 more weeks eating, exercising, meditating, and learning with me. It's been very interesting because many of our interns had had varying degrees of success on a raw diet prior to coming here. Some were all raw, but far more had had trouble maintaining a raw diet. From this group there were people struggling with each version of raw.
One of the few things that they all had in common was thriving on a high fruit diet after fasting. Many of them were very surprised by this as they had failed previously and suffered from many of the same issues as RGG.
Getting the body clean and far more efficient is, in a sense, more important than the diet itself, in so far as a toxic, congested, inefficient body will not be able to get the most from any diet. Once clean, the body can maximize its digestion, handle the sugar with no problem, and thrive with very little protein or fat.
Until the body is really clean and efficient, our fat and protein intake will usually need to be much higher as the body may only be converting a small percentage of what we consume into usable nutrients. Similarly, flooding the body with massive concentrations of nutrients -- as happens with juicing, lots of smoothies, and so-called “superfoods” -- may allow an otherwise poorly-functioning system to get its needs met, though this is really addressing the symptom and not the cause.
It’s not about taking in more nutrients; that’s the conventional view. Rather, we want to address the reasons for not getting what we need from a simple natural diet (the most likely being poor food quality and a highly inefficient, toxic body.) If we can resolve these two issues – and I can assure you that they are both relatively easy to address – we never need to administer massive doses of anything, including nutrition, and will be much better off by not doing so.
Every other species thrives on a simple raw diet, and we can too. What happens for most of the long-term raw foodists that I know (I'll be raw 18 years in November) is that their desire for complex dishes and concentrated fats and proteins diminishes with time. I don't eat simply because I believe I should; I eat simply because it’s what my body wants and I feel best doing it. I would suggest that this is inevitable as the body cleanses and heals itself on a raw diet over time if one is paying attention to the body, which means getting out of the head.
811 encourages people to stay in their heads, and as such, is doing them a disservice. Following someone else's program is the antithesis of listening to your own body. Having said that, it's very confusing for most of us -- not to hear the body's messages, but to properly interpret them.
The quickest way to insure that you can trust the body's messages is to get the body clean and understand some simple realities.
This is not a popular idea, but all herbs are toxic to our bodies. Herbs make the essential oils that give them their characteristic smells and tastes in an effort to encourage animals (primarily insects) not to eat them. This is why dosages or concurrent days of usage must be monitored; to manage the toxicity. And toxic substances, whether pharmaceuticals or right-from-the-backyard plants can only suppress symptoms, allowing you to feel better while interrupting the cleansing/healing that the original symptoms signified.
RGG mentioned that she had a problem with overeating. And it's miraculous to me that more people don't notice the same issue when they are being encouraged to eat to stretch the stomach. The stomach is an elastic bag the size of your fist. It is always stretching. But eating past the point of satiation is a sure recipe for indigestion for most, and indigestion signifies that the meal – no matter how amazing it might have been on the plate, is creating problems for us.
I do not encourage calorie restriction as such, but do encourage people to allow the body to become more efficient and then pay attention by only meeting – and not exceeding – the body’s needs for calories and nutrients. Over time, caloric needs will decrease as the body gets more efficient.
Eating more than we need, (even if we have “iron stomachs” and never suffer from indigestion,) is inefficient because it means that the body is working harder than it needs to at this most energy-expensive enterprising of digesting and assimilating our food. And increasing the metabolism means that we are aging faster, and weakening the body thus shortening our lives and increasing the likelihood of disease.
Where ever one is on their path, they would be well-served to put aside their beliefs, dogma, and indoctrination and really begin to listen to their body. They may need help interpreting the signals they’re getting; most people are too handicapped by cultural beliefs about symptoms, nutrient needs, and, well…everything else, to be able to easily get out of their heads and really understand what their body is telling them.
But they can, and like most other things, it gets easier with practice and successful experience. In the meantime, it might help to consult with someone who has achieved what they want to achieve to better understand what’s going on and know how to resolve it.
Throwing more stuff at it is not the answer, though it might provide short-term relief. We need to learn to get out of the way and allow the body to cleanse and heal itself as only the body can.
In the meantime, if your body requires more fat to meet its needs…eat it. But pay attention. Many make the mistake of believing that they’ve figured it all out, not paying attention until it’s too late that what has worked for them before is no longer working.
Improve your diet to even a small degree and your body will be better able to cleanse and heal itself; it’s always trying. As it cleanses and heals it also becomes more efficient, and as it becomes more efficient, your needs will change.
-
Permalink Reply by AwesomeUniverse!!! on -
Hi Loren. What are your thoughts on someone who lives in a cold climate? Do you think they should eat imported bananas or eat more nuts in winter?
excellent post btw.
-
Permalink Reply by Lightlover on -
Old threads never die....
Yes excellent Loren. I think it is easier for you to eat high fruit
in Panama than where I am in the Netherlands.....
It is hard to find good tasting ripe picked organic fruit here...
However some fruits (example mango's...) arrive here while some pieces have been picked
more ripe than others, if you have luck and select well, you can get the better ones.
Nice that you put emphasis on the fact that only a cleansed body can make informed choices
about what is the best to eat...
LL
-
Permalink Reply by Loren Lockman on
-
Hey Lightlover,
We get really delicious fruit here, so you may be right, though I've had some pretty tasty stuff in past visits to Amsterdam. Thanks for your comments and maybe we'll meet over there some day.
LL, too.
-
Permalink Reply by Loren Lockman on
-
Hi AwesomeU,
I lived in the US 14 years raw, roughly 10 years around Washington, DC, and 4 years up in the mountains an hour or so to the northwest of there. It was cold enough there in the winter, and I thrived eating local apples and pears, citrus from Florida, bananas, some avocados, kiwis, simple green salads, and whatever else we could get organic with very few nuts and seeds (by the time I left there 4+ years ago.)
Though it would be nice to get everything locally, I would prefer to meet continue to meet my body's needs as well as possible with whatever is available, including imported bananas if necessary.
Latest Activity
This happens to me! Not everytime, but often enough for me to notice. Naturally I find sneezing quite pleasurable:)
Found this article online. Thought it was both interesting and amusing.
Smutty Thoughts Cause Sneezing
What do you think about when you sneeze? Medical specialists have discovered a link between sneezing and sexy thoughts.
Dr Mahmood Bhutta, an...
I love spaghettis.
Hi Nicole,
We don't need any salt at all, and in fact it's always toxic to the body. Salt is a rock, and no matter how small we smash it, it is an inorganic mineral which our bodies cannot really use. Organic sodium is needed by ever single cell ...
Oooh that looks yummy.
How important is salt to the human diet? I never really added much salt to my meals (mainly pepper) before going raw but until recently I would of added himalayan salt to every raw salad over the past 9 months. I have been off it for around 2-3 we...
The smoke points are important for those people who are cooking with oils, but not those that are 100% raw foodists. Because I get many questions from those that are transtioning, I feel that it's important to answer some ot those questions also. ...
Life on other planets, uncooking shows, sex, philosophy, history, nature, relationships, and other things that are hard to explain.
I think he's happy to see you.
It was you RGG that first introduced me to the idea of how important closing one's eyes was during detox. :)
Thank you. :)
How'd you come up with the 6 weeks? I know that Lukas had an amazing experience at your center and looks amazing.
When are you gonna write a book?
After I tried (three days in a row), the Raw Spaghettis at GRO, (my favorite local place in Portland ME), I ran home and ordered the tool that would allow me to make raw pasta and so many other dishes! The blades are very sharp, so be careful if y...
I don't watch much or follow the story. I just watch it whenever it's on. My list.
True Blood
Scrubs
Family Guy
South Park
History Chanel
Community by WLIR:
© 2009 Created by Dhrumil
