Nazariah- Anyone read this?

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Permalink Reply by Marc on November 4, 2008 at 1:02am

You know Miin chan, in essence, I agree with you. Let me say first I didn't know that about fish having complex neurological pain systems. That is rather disturbing. Not as an excuse, but as an explanation, I have to say that I am not a vegetarian, although I am trying to convince myself to become one for the most part. I have lived my life under the same kind of habits that probably the majority if Americans have grown up with. I don't think it's an evil by intention, rather lets say it's an evil by ignorance. I think that people can understand logically that something is wrong, and that probably an animal feels pain when killed to be food. On the other hand, I also think there is a huge difference between knowing and feeling. I think that in order for a person to change their identity, meaning seeing themselves as a "meat eater" and then converting to a "non meat eater" whether that be vegetarian or vegan (not entirely aware of all the differences) they have to have some kind of motivational shift. You obviously feel strongly about the moral consequences of eating animals so it's not in your identity to do something like that. I would guess that somewhere along the way you had an emotional connection to this. Whether it be you actually saw something that had a great impact or you were able to connect to your emotions through some other means to impel you to change so strongly. I think most of us in America have been told that animals suffer when they are killed for food. We don't think about it though. I think seeing the gore, having things explained in minute detail, knowing things like the pain receptors are very complex and sensitive in fish, actually having exposure to the hard core reality might change a lot of people. It wouldn't change everyone, still. But a large part of the population that still eat animals are emotionally disconnected to the reality of slaughter. Even now as I write this, I know that gruesome things must happen, but there hasn't been that emotional switch that is usually necessary for a life changing behavior and philosophical shift. I do think that for myself and probably many others, it's a matter of not seeking that information out because we are afraid what we may find, and then we would have to make a decision that would question our identity and who we say we are. DO we really value life, or convenience? What are our REAL priorities? I think Americans in general (sorry for the generalizations) like to stick their heads in the sand, at least if our domestic problems are of any indication. I do want to become kinder to the world, but there are also emotional issues wrapped up in leaving the comfort of what you know for something entirely new, even if that comfort comes at the price of other living things. That's why I said I really admire your attitude and choice of lifestyle, because you have integrity between your identity as a person who wouldn't harm other things and your actual behaviors of not making choices that cause that harm. I cannot say that about myself at this time, if I am bluntly honest. Perhaps someday soon I will be able to make that leap and become more harmonious within myself. I know that I have been thinking about this more these days. Maybe I found this place for a reason? Anyway, does any of the above make sense to you?

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Permalink Reply by Marc on November 4, 2008 at 1:11am

wow that was a book. Really sorry about that folks.

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Permalink Reply by miin chan on November 4, 2008 at 1:37am

hi marc
thanks for your lovely reply, your honesty and for being true about yourself and where you are at. at least you are at this site and obviously thinking about things in relation to food and diet and how it affects our environment and selves.

"If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian." -
-- Paul McCartney

Not the best quote on vegetarianism I have ever seen but it relates to what you said about not knowing the details.. honestly though I do have friends who have seen videos such as "Earthlings" or "Meet Your Meat" or PETA films about how meat is produced who even say that it makes them hungry! And they aren't kidding! I think most people have a denial switch which allows them to disassociate from what they are seeing.. watching a lot of gory movies which desensitises us from violence of any kind doesn't help either. I think people don't even really understand what goes on in war because they just see it on TV and don't personally experience it, so it isn't real for them.

You know, the thing is that right now, not eating meat is becoming a huge environmental concern, due to the way we have been abusing the meat production process. So even if you wouldn't turn veg for ethical or philosophical reasons (though it is interesting to note that pretty much all the great philosophers, thinkers and scientists of the last 200 years were vegetarians or vegans), we now have a greater reason.. to save our planet. The UN recently released a report stating that turning vegetarian is the best thing you can do for the environment, even better than driving your car less or other green options in your daily life. Now, I don't go around converting people but I think now more than ever, there are overwhelming reasons to become vegetarian and you just can't ignore it anymore.

By the way..
Vegan: does not consume or use any animal products including dairy, eggs or honey.
Vegetarian: eats only veggies, dairy, eggs, honey but no meat or seafood.

Most vegans are vegans because of ethical reasons actually, but nowadays it is more and more common that people do it for health reasons. There are plenty of vegetarians who do it for religious reasons, especially in the East, where I live.

Another interesting thing that I've noticed is that in the East, we really do approach meat eating differently. It's mostly due to affluence to be honest.. in the West, as it became more developed and industrialised, meat was produced in a mass way and people don't often see how the animals are treated or killed. In the East, because meat is usually harder to come by, it is usually bred and killed by the person who sells it.. you see the entire animal's body and it is often chosen alive then killed in your face. But that hasn't stopped the eating of meat, interestingly, it has just become a normal way of life. In a way, I have varying opinions on this.. if someone sees an animal get killed, is aware, and even sees the whole animal when they eat it, then fair enough, they chose to do so.. but then I wonder, are they heartless? Or has meat eating become a luxury so people just forget about the animal's suffering? It's just a different mindset between East and West. I have Aussie friends who are disgusted when they see an entire fish served to them.. or duck carcasses hanging in windows.. it's quite funny. I'm like "What did you think it the animal looked like?" Haha.

Look, one day, I think that you will feel ready to make the leap. And trust me, you will be so much better for it. I became vegetarian around age 14/15 but was on and off because my parents (I am Chinese) were a bit wary of it. But when I was 18 we went to India to see Sai Baba and my whole family became vegetarian (though my siblings have fallen off the wagon since). Since then, I have become vegan and now try to eat as much raw as possible.. it was gradual for me.. and I don't miss meat at all, even though we ate a lot of it when I was a child. I truly think that it is a progression that humans will make.. eating less animal products. It really helps you on all levels if you do it properly, but you have to make the decision yourself, don't let anyone force you when you aren't ready. When you are, you will know and it will be wonderful.

Good luck, and keep seeking knowledge. But know that in the end, experience is everything. Try it for a short period, maybe a week, and see how you feel... or just gradually eat less meat (it's better for your health anyway)..

Peace!

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Permalink Reply by Stephanie on November 4, 2008 at 2:15am

"In the East, because meat is usually harder to come by, it is usually bred and killed by the person who sells it.. you see the entire animal's body and it is often chosen alive then killed in your face. But that hasn't stopped the eating of meat, interestingly, it has just become a normal way of life. In a way, I have varying opinions on this.. if someone sees an animal get killed, is aware, and even sees the whole animal when they eat it, then fair enough, they chose to do so.. but then I wonder, are they heartless? Or has meat eating become a luxury so people just forget about the animal's suffering?"

Great post, Miin. I was aware of this practice in the Eastern region of the world, and I'm glad you brought it up. I've never had a problem with people eating other animals as long as the animal was raised humanely and they were either killing the animal themselves or by a butcher in the way you have relayed to us in your post.

The animal eating/suffering issue has so many different angles that it would be impossible for me to tackle in less than a novel-sized post. ;D

I will say that humans are the only animals we know of that are actively concerned with the suffering of another animal and change our eating habits to reflect our ethics concerning ending another animal's life (this is not to say other animals do not exhibit concern over others' suffering, I am putting this into specific context with dietary choices as it relates to suffering). To play devil's advocate here — what of the omnivores and carnivores in the animal kingdom that hunt and kill and end lives on a regular basis? I doubt they are wringing their hands and hooves and paws and wondering whether they should become vegetarian or vegan to protect the sanctity of life. Who is to say it is not somewhere in our nature, in our DNA, to hunt and kill and end lives as well? Of course, I was vegan for a long time for ethical reasons, not health. In fact, my health started to suffer from it later, whereupon I begrudgingly added in raw, wild-caught fish and have done a 180 in terms of my energy levels and overall health. Whatever was missing has been recovered, but at what cost? Fish are complex, beautiful creatures who often suffer unnecessarily for human consumption, and while I don't want to support that, what do we do as omnivores (some argue we are complete herbivores...though there is more evidence leading toward omnivorous tendencies) when the issue of sustenance comes up? I could move somewhere near a river and fish to ensure a quick, painless-as-possible death for my fellow animal, which I would do, but it's not feasible for me at the moment. Using a similar stream of logic, I can see where people would justify a factory-farm meat diet.

I think that all animals are conscious beings, and that we are not exclusively worthy of this title. Though, I think we have more of a choice as to what we eat, and if it suits us to not eat other animals because we can't imagine putting another being through such suffering for our consumption, then I support that.

Anyway, I think this post was a bit of ramble. My apologies. :) There are just so many ways to approach it and so many bits of information to consider...it can get a little confusing, and you can end up proving and disproving your points and perceptions over and over... :P

Steph

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Permalink Reply by miin chan on November 4, 2008 at 2:43am

dear steph,

lovely post! i do think that humans and animals are conscious beings, but on different levels. i know that everyone has a different take on that but for me, i do think we have the ability to be consciously aware of a higher purpose (spirituality) and that is why we are able to use ethics to deduce what we do and don't think is moral behaviour. also, if you think that all animals are conscious beings and on an equal level to each other, then it doesn't make sense that we should be eating each other.. because we wouldn't want to be eaten either! if that makes sense... :)

animals, on the other hand, kill other species as part of the food chain due to necessity. humans don't NEED to eat meat, i really don't believe we do.. sure, evidence is one thing, but having studied medicine and gotten into nutrition, as well as having done biomedical research, i don't think you can take all aspects of those studies to heart. they aren't always done in a controlled way and i think scientific research is often affected by the researcher's own bias (without them necessarily realising).

also, animals will kill their prey but only as needed, and the way nature works, the entirety of that killed animal is used (as was done in indigenous cultures). usually they try to kill their prey as quickly as possible (not sure if i could say it's painless though!). for example, lions will kill an antelope, eat as much of it as possible with their entire pride, then the hyenas come along and eat what they can, and finally ants will come along and make good work of the bones. so nature makes sure that none of it is ever wasted- nature respects itself and all that is within it.

sure, if we still lived in a completely natural way, you could argue that we would need to eat meat to survive (but really we'd only get small amounts because we are inefficient hunters without weaponry) and would likely use the whole animal for clothes, food etc. but we don't, so we have to work with where we are at.. living unnaturally.

so in order for our planet to move forward and for humans to survive (because really, the planet doesn't need us to continue on, we need it).. not eating animals is the best thing to do from many standpoints.. ethical, environmental, spiritual and physical. the big hot topic, the environment, is something to really really consider because even if people all started eating organically produced meat that they raise themselves.. we just would not have enough space. our population is too dense, you would still need to use too much water and resources to raise meat, and in the end you would still be doing a much more damaging thing than just eating veggies (which, when produced and farmed, still end up killing quite a lot of insects and animals anyway! argh!).

you are right that there are so many ways to approach it and it is confusing.. to reiterate what i said before, we have to figure out what works for us on all levels and do what we think is right. i wouldn't expect you to do what i do, only what you feel in yourself is how you want to live your life. only when it starts impinging on others and the planet do i think that we can all have a say on how things should be done on a big scale.

hugs!

Permalink Reply by Marc on November 7, 2008 at 10:26pm

I remember going to Seoul for a month, and we went to eat sashimi (hwe I think in korean, cant remember) and we went into the market and saw fish swimming everywhere in tanks, bowls etc. I remember, when I realized they were going to kill it right there, I was shocked. It was so different than the environment of the supermarket in America I was used to, where everything is totally removed from the reality of carnivorous habits and packaged nicely, like it's not even a real living creature. Packaged like, well a hot dog, like a box of cracker jacks. It put me off, an I remember contemplating telling my friend I wanted something non fish but didnt know if they sold anything other than fish.. it was that kind of place I guess. I think it was the first time I was connected to the uncomfortable truth- that it was in my face. To eat something that was alive, just minutes ago. It affected me more than I would have thought, made me pause and think, where I never had before thought about it. Now I have been back in America forever and I am back to the apathetic, removed, aloof consumer habits. I don't think of my food as "living." I think of it as substances, like vitamins. I think maybe that is why raw food diets begin to make people change. Once you start thinking of your foods in terms of "dead" and "alive," you realize how your habits affect you and everything around you, including the things you put in your mouth and where it came from. Thank you for being so understanding.

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