People getting sick on raw food? -Link-, we should write in to the paper ;);)...

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Permalink Reply by John Coleman on June 21, 2008 at 2:29am

I don't think people are upset by your desire to exercise your freedoms, or indeed by sharing your experiences. I think your findings are very important, and I hope they bring people down to earth about their expectations of being raw vegan.

It is far too easy for people to regard raw and vegan as "natural" and therefore infallable, when in fact these claims are simply wrong.

However, what I think we can object to is the unsupported and illogical beliefs that you present us with, your claims that eating animal products is healthy or good for children and so forth.

Some raw vegans live in fear of having their kids taken away by social services, and you are adding to their amo. Not your responsibility what the state does of course, but even so no need to stir the pot with unsupported scare stories.

We need good information, not just more information.

Permalink Reply by Christine Horner on June 21, 2008 at 8:09am

Hi,

I'm a mother of 4 children and I am transitioning them to raw food. I am not attatched to them being vegan or otherwise. I just want to do what I feel is the best for them.

The nanny state would love us all to be the same and do what we are told. If you push the idea that bringing children up vegan is wrong and a form of child abuse, then we could be faced with having our parental rights being removed by laws. This won't just end up affecting vegans, will it? It will end up with any kind of individuality people have being squashed by the state. The papers are often having a go at minority groups like home edders, non vaccinators etc. You know how it goes.

I think you are playing into their hands by taking the route of the national press Holly. I'm sure there are loads of us on here who could really benefit from your experience. Here's your platform, not the national media, who see vegans and raw foodist as extremists. Anything "extremist" is to be feared and fought against in our culture.

I for one, wonder how long I'm going to be able to bring my kids up how I choose in this country. It's worrying.

Love
Christine

Permalink Reply by Jef on June 21, 2008 at 2:03pm

That's exactly what I fear. I'm in U.S. though.

Permalink Reply by Karl Greaves on June 21, 2008 at 8:12am

It is not just raw vegans who live in fear of having their children taken away it is anyone who is against the facist system that is being introduced daily. The mindset behind this is always looking for justification in science for what they are doing. They accumilate facts which are used to justify their agenda. So what you are promoting is the same mindset. You accuse Holly of scare stories when you bring in a scare story about vegan children being taken away.

Permalink Reply by Christine Horner on June 21, 2008 at 8:37am

I don't understand what you are saying here. How am I spreadig scare stories? I'm just saying don't add fuel to the fire of other people's prejudices. I think that's what Holly's article did.

Sorry if you don't like to hear it, but that's how people outside the raw food world see these things.

Permalink Reply by Karl Greaves on June 21, 2008 at 9:19am

I was not talking to you I was talking to John Coleman

Permalink Reply by Karl Greaves on June 21, 2008 at 9:28am

Plus I don't mind hearing it. I know what people outside the raw food scene are like. I have lived on this planet for rather a long time. It is not just people outside the raw food movement who are like this it is also people in the raw food movement. It is the human condition at the moment. You don't want the authorities to stop you having the life you want but you want to stop Holly saying what she has to say which is the same thing . Everyone adds to the fire of other people prejudices and so are you by saying Holly should not say what she said. If you don't understand the things I said maybe you should look a little closer it is not rocket science.

Permalink Reply by Christine Horner on June 21, 2008 at 9:51am

I'm all for free speach. I think it would be great if we could all say what we wanted to. I don't think that's the world we live in though Karl.

Do you have kids? If you do, you know that other people often think what you do with your kids is their business. We once had a lady cause trouble for our family because she didn't agree with home education. It was very upsetting. I had just given birth to twins at the time and was feeling very vulnerable. I appreciate she had a right to her views, but to cause such unnecessary suffering to my family? I don't think so.

Actions do have consequences.

Permalink Reply by suse on June 21, 2008 at 10:17am

I've only just linked in to this whirlwind of debate triggered by the publication of the article about Holly. What stuns me is how much everyone seems to think they know about how other people think, and about how they are BOUND to respond to anything, least of all a mother's brave honesty about her personal experience- and courage to offer it to the world beyond rarified self- protecting enclaves.

Where on earth is the respect for and vision of EVERYONE's inherent potential to have or trigger their own discerning intelligence? Why do we assume that 'other people' might be too witless to be anything other than fear based ? Where did this raw/vegan/vegetarian/ any sort of 'this way is the only right way ' foodist superiority podium come from- all with collective ego on it's face?

Based on personal experience- gosh I have met hundreds of people who chow down on food I would never dream of touching (= my personal freedom and, equally, theirs ) and, gosh, they all have vibrant intelligence- and, while they have preferences, are sufficiently clear on their personal responsibility for their own choices, that they have no 'prejudices on fire' to be fed. They are IMMENSELY loving, humourous, open, compassionate, spirited, generous individuals who consider, reflect, adjust and adapt as much as any person I know who chooses and uses mostly raw food.

Frankly- while it is isn't the easiest thing on earth to always access food we personally consider healthy for ourselves, we can always access the vital essential ingredient for on-going well-being: love and respect- which is available on tap, and never exhausted. The only place for truth is 'out in the open'- where it can be shared, explored, and refreshed in the context of 'freedom to choose' Wooo-hoooo!

Holly is a courageous, anarchic, articulate, passionate and hugely devoted mother, fully living the courage of her convictions, forever open to fresh learnings and change. She probably shares the passion of most mothers- 'loving their children up, as best they can'. There is no blanket formula- therein lies the beauty of diverse flourishing. Children may thwart their parent's concept of 'what is right', governed by their own radar, and, in that, even maybe open out a healing in the parent.

so, thank you, holly.....now, who's eating those dang bagels? ;)

love love love to EVERYONE x x x x

Permalink Reply by Holly Paige on June 21, 2008 at 4:58am

oh it would go on for ever!!!!!
i will write it all up i think but it's taking so long to answer everyone's questions since that article i am going t have to write it all up in one place
thanks for
i still feel reluctant to say what i have seen without deeply considering the way i go about it
because i don't want to do it in a harmful way
i don't know yet whether i can point fingers and may be it's not necessary. Maybe just to alert peoole as to what could go wrong should be enough for people to be vaildated to make changes if they see problems developing. i'm not here to tell people how to live their lives just to share useful info. The importnat thing in my view is that epople are empower to trust what they see with their own lives and not sacrifice themselves to outside opinions and dogma. In raw children outside my familyI have seen stunted growth, milk teeth fail to develop properly and even fall crumble out of the mouth, delayed development and people just ahving to give up the attempt which i think is a shame because raw food is such a wonderful way to bring up children

Permalink Reply by Holly Paige on June 21, 2008 at 5:13am

there is lots of raw dairy available locally here in devon uk which has been great but it seems from what i have seen that vegans who eat some cooked food do loads better than purely raw vegans
i have a few ideas why but don't feel i know completely why
i just love to hear about healthy children but it seems we have some way to get all the answers ot being healthy and completely ethical -but isn't that part of the bigger dilemma we now face as a human race. let's go for it
would you be willing to write up your experience for a book? and of course i would publish your account unedited that's the whole point!
it would be so great to get all these acoounts together to help people make their own choices
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

solstice love
holly

Permalink Reply by Holly Paige on June 20, 2008 at 5:40pm

and thanks so much Buddhababy!
great to chat
xxxxxxxxxx

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