Fruit or Fat? + The problem with quinoa, black beans, brown rice?

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Permalink Reply by nycgrrl on June 11, 2008 at 4:26pm

an issue I had with 811rv is that much of your fruit (if you don't live in the tropics) would be imported, and who knows what kind of cultivation/irradiation/etc went along with that. eating locally whenever possible is so important to me.

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Permalink Reply by VOID on July 24, 2008 at 8:24am

Hey Jon,

I know its been a while since this was posted but thought Id post on this as I just found it again.

Dunno if these are still concerns, but re: your points

1) You're right, DHA is very important for the brain. We can convert ALA (plant form omega 3) to EPA/DHA providing we have adequate levels of Magnesium, B6 and Zinc in our bodies. If you use something like nutritiondata.com, you will see that your omega 3 fatty acids are EASILY met by including just half an avocado in your diet. Even without that you still get quite abit, as long as youre eating plenty of calories and greens.

2) Social eating, Doug talks quite alot about this in some of his other material actually, but the best rule of thumb I find, is just to eat plenty before I go out for a meal, and either phone in advance and make sure they have the ingredients in for either a fruit platter or a big salad with a simple dressing, or both, or just ask for a plain salad when you get there and either bring your own dressing in a pot, or just ask for some freshly squeezed lemon over it. If you're going out to eat socially, the focus then becomes just about socialising, which is what we really want anyway. Social eating is just a way to connect with people, a way of sharing an experience. When you're not as focused on the food because you've already eaten, you know you;re just eating to be social, and so you can focus more energy on enjoying others' company.

3) Youre right mothers milk is much higher in fat than 811. This is for a good reason. Babys brains or even bodies arent developed when born. They continue to be developed for years. Even doug graham doesnt recommend 811 for young children. He says kids age 0-6 need a diet of around 60% fat. Young children have much different nutritional requirements to adults.

Hope that explains what you wanted.

Take Care

Adam x

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Permalink Reply by Jon Bischke on May 16, 2008 at 12:22pm

Re: #1 - Graham actually is pretty heavy anti-olive and his recommendation is the occasional avocado (maybe one every few days) rather than eating them regularly. Because avocados are almost all fat it'd be tough to eat many of them and stay 811. As far as the original question, I'd still like to see evidence of the effect of 811 on the brain. I'm skeptical. There just isn't much out there. Everyone is either a brain nutritionist/researcher saying "eat lots of fat as long as it's good fat/omega-3/dha" and others saying "eat as little fat as you can (basically)". Would love a more complete debate on this (all-important issue).

Re: #2 - I get that. But I'd say I'm home eating less than 50% of my meals. So while veganism and even possibly raw seems fairly compatible with my schedule, 811 seems really tough. My concern is that if you start doing all that fruit during your regular 811 meals it becomes really difficult to introduce much fat in your diet on your "cheat" meals. So then to get enough calories in your diet you basically have to resort to cooked. In other words, it seems like you either choose to be a strict 811er or if not, you should probably do low fat cooked meals (quinoa, brown rice, etc.) rather than high fat raw meals (that's pretty much what Graham says in the book).

Re #3 - It makes sense. Just seem a little strange that during our high growth and development years we go high-fat and then all of a sudden it's low-fat that makes more sense.

And we're on the same path. I'm looking to reduce the level of fats in my diet too. I guess right now what I'm trying to figure out (and this is an evolving thought process!) is whether you have go all the way to 811 to be optimal. If you don't and let's say you're at 20-30% fat (well under the 50-70% fat common in raw food) then do you run a high risk of candida (given all the fruit you're consuming even @ 20-30% fat)? That's another subject that hasn't been covered enough.

Good stuff! :)

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Permalink Reply by Jon Bischke on May 16, 2008 at 4:15pm

@buddhababy - That sounds good but here's my concern. If there's a negative impact on my brain I'm not going to "feel" that within 30 days. Just the same as people who've loaded up on transfatty acids and basically destroyed their brains don't feel it. I get the part about feeling more clear-headed on raw. That makes sense to me. However, I don't think feeling clear-headed is synonymous with optimal nutrition for your brain and body.

@SUVINE - Do you mean all fruit or fruit + greens? It seems like most people (e.g., Graham, Butenko) are advising at least a portion of greens mixed with fruit for optimal nutrition.

@PinkLady - I don't know if I have candida or not. I might but in general have pretty good health so I doubt it (or if I do it's pretty mild). My concern is that I've read many place how upping fruit intake can lead to candida. Now I'll buy that candida might be more a fat thing and that reducing fat makes sense but I guess the question is "Why not 70/20/10?" or 60/30/10? At what point does fat consumption drop to some magical level where candida is not a concern? Graham suggests 10% but I don't see any scientific backing for why 10% is better than 15% or 8%. Is 811 just a cute way of rounding numbers and/or a simplification to make it easier for people?

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Permalink Reply by Bryonna on May 16, 2008 at 8:28pm

What sort of skin condition did you get? I'm asking because on my chest my skin looks dry and flaky yet it is very soft, not dry feeling at all. It goes through stages of being really flakly, like after you get sunburned to being not very noticable. I haven't figured out what its from and its been like that for over a year....wondering if it could be that i'm not getting enough EFA's.

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Permalink Reply by Jon Bischke on May 16, 2008 at 9:04pm

@Pink Lady - According to Graham, olives should be avoided. The reason for this is olives in the raw aren't actually edible (http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/rawolives). Plus, they're high in fat. I'm not saying I agree with him...just saying what he says. :)

Also, in terms of family history they certainly weren't eating nearly as healthy as I do. But I still err on the side of caution here. Every member of my family on one side has a history of depression, I have an uncle that committed suicide, etc. So I don't really want to mess around here. I'd gladly take a diet that optimized for the brain and sub-optimal in other areas over a diet that's sub-optimal for the brain.

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Permalink Reply by Jon Bischke on May 16, 2008 at 9:46pm

Good stuff. I'd definitely credit diet as a big part of why I'm one of the few people in my family who isn't taking antidepressants.

And yeah, I'd have a hard time sticking to a diet that considered olives unhealthy. While they might not be kale they sure as hell ain't a fast food burger. :)

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Permalink Reply by nycgrrl on June 11, 2008 at 4:51pm

I have a history of depression as well, Jon. I am weaning off of antidepressants, and have been for 2 months, so we'll see if incorporating some quinoa etc into my diet affects my mood. It's really important to me to include sufficient omega 3's in my diet--without them, symptoms of anxiety and depression show up--so for now, i am eating flax seeds and hemp oil which would bring my fat proportion up too high if i weren't eating foods that are dense calorically like quinoa, peas, beans.

So far, so good (it's only been 2 days though.)

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Permalink Reply by Jon Bischke on May 26, 2008 at 10:27pm

A lot more studying and still no answer to this riddle. It seems like every raw book I read is either promoting a relatively high-fat diet (the vast majority of raw nutrition and raw cookbooks) or high-fruit (e.g., 80/10/10). There seems like a possible third option where you eat mostly greens and sprouts with a few pieces of fruit mixed in and the occasional small amount of nuts/seeds. However, I still haven't seen anyone outline how you can get to a satisfactory caloric intake with sort of diet (most raw nutrition/cookbooks are shockingly devoid of any nutrition information for their recipes/recommended intake). The only challenge with that (from what I've heard) is that you'll likely need to transition in through more high-fat/gourmet raw food (what David Wolfe did) until your body is prepared to live on less calories.

80/10/10 does a great job of outlining macronutrient and caloric intake. It's just that I don't buy into the high fruit diet for a host of reasons.

It'd be great to see someone approach non-high-fruit raw with that intensity. Just haven't seen it yet. Let me know if I'm missing something! :)

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Permalink Reply by Marte on June 12, 2008 at 4:41pm

I don't think you should beat yourself up about eating some cooked food now and then. When I started, I allowed myself to eat cooked/steamed food as long as I only ate one cooked item per meal, and that I ate it a long with raw food. For instance, some chickpeas thrown in to a salad or some tofu in my zuccini pasta.

You see a lot of people eating whatever, as long as it's raw, and I think that can be a great way to get in to raw, but at some point you have to find a balance. You'll get there, I'm sure.

I've been reading a lot about 811, and as a result started eating more fruit & less fat and less root vegetables. No grains exept some rice on occasion - but then I've never done well with grains, not even quinoa, sadly. So far I've had only good experiences, especially the days I do more heavy work out (running and off road biking). It's even been hard to keep my pulse up on the level where I want it (to get a good workout).

What I'm doing right now is eating fruit in the morning (usually a fruit smoothie), fruit as a mid meal snack, fruit or a salad for lunch, then a fruit again, then fruit juice or green smoothie. I don't eat fat untill dinner-time, that is.

I have no overview of caloric intake, I pretty much go by instinct. I just feel great :)

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Permalink Reply by nycgrrl on June 12, 2008 at 5:39pm

i am similar to you, except i have a big salad for lunch. If i eat grains or pseudograins, i wait til dinner, as they tend to make me a little sleepy. for me, it's great on days when i run and want to get more calories but not more fat.

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Permalink Reply by FarmSchooler on November 13, 2008 at 4:26pm

Jon,

Im not sure youd be ABLE to do that (give nutritional info in a raw foods cookbook). The soils things grow in are so important and even from my own garden, tomatoes from the opposite ends of the same row can have widely varying brix (sugar density) readings.

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