What do your beliefs have to do with anything?
I always smile when I see people on health forums throw the word "believe" around.
"I don't believe in supplements. I don't believe in eating meat. I don't believe in cacao. I don't believe in juicing. I don't believe in taking B12. I don't believe kids should be raw. I don't believe in this or that..."
What the hell do your beliefs have to do with anything?
First off: The nature of a belief is that it is inherently limited. Beliefs are based on individual experiences, yet people use them in an attempt to blanketly define the experiences of others.
Let's take the following statement: "I don't believe in taking supplements."
What does that statement even mean? Either you take supplements or you don't. Either you've had success with supplements or you haven't. What does your belief have to do with anything?
Here's the thing about that statement. When someone says "I don't believe in taking supplements" what they really mean is, "Based on my personal experiences (this includes my research, etc) I've found that supplements are not needed to maintain excellent health. I feel so strongly about this statement and in the validity of my experiences, that I feel this also applies to the lives other people too."
It's that last part of the statement, the "other people", that makes beliefs meaningless and also deeply limiting when it comes to health.
If I asked you whether or not you believe in gravity, what would you say?
I have a feeling you'd laugh at the question. Why? Because it's meaningless. What does belief have to do with gravity? Your experience has shown you gravity is present. You don't need to believe in gravity, you simple need to observe your experiences. Whether or not you believe in it... it still exists! It's there. You witness it, you don't need to believe it.
Here's why I'm using the example of gravity. If you really feel as strongly about your experiences as you feel about gravity, then stick to telling your story and stick to the facts. Enlighten other people with how you got your results!
Present your story clearly and include measurable things people can do to get the same results as you. Measurable is the key word!
If you are thriving on a diet without supplements (sticking with the example), I'm not interested in what your beliefs are, but rather your actual results:
* How long have you been eating this way?
* Have you ever tried a raw diet on supplements? If so how would you compare the experience?
* What indicators do you use to measure your health success?
* What would be some simple tests that you recommend that I could do to see if I get similar results
* etc, etc
Based on your reply, it's up to me to either try to accept and reproduce your results or say to myself, "This person's experience may be valid for them, but based on my experiences I don't feel it will be valid for me."
No argument. No need to fight over the "truth".
Either people will want to try what you recommend or they won't. If they don't, fuck it. That's up to them. All you can do is focus on presenting your information clearly in a way that's non-treating. In a way that isn't trying to "convert" anyone.
I use the word "convert" because that's what many beliefs try to get you to do. They try to convert others into a way of looking at the world.
A belief is an attachment to an idea, a way of thinking. And when a group of beliefs combine together they form an attachment to a sense of identity.
Because you believe in x, y, and z, you think of yourself as a _________ (fill in the blank).
You think of yourself as....
* a raw foodist
* a 80/10/10-er
* a vegan
* a fruitarian
* and so on...
Of course there's nothing wrong with eating a vegan diet, or eating raw foods, or focusing on maintaining an 80/10/10 balance. Where the challenge comes in is when you start seeing everything that happens, including the experiences of others, through the eyes of that particular identity. You see everything through the eyes of your beliefs.
The world of health is not governed by beliefs. There are so many unique situations and so many exceptions to "the rule". There are so many factors that play into the success of one's health. Even though I've only been eating raw food for the last 7 years, I've already seen hundreds of examples of this.
It's time to leave beliefs out of the equation when it comes to discussing health. Not only is the discussion of beliefs not productive, but it's almost always at the root of well intentioned discussions that morph into personal attacks. People fighting and arguing over the "truth".
On a deeper note, I've seen so many people run into challenges over the years because they've been so attached to particular beliefs. They believe more in their belief than they do in getting results. And their health suffers because of it.
When you become fixated on your beliefs and your identity, your ego tries to do two things:
1) It tries to make other people wrong so that your story is strengthened. If other people are wrong than you must obvious be right. This makes the ego feel great.
2) It tries to scare you into not accepting change. If you see that your current health regimen isn't working or needs to be tweaked, your ego's attachment to a "way of doing things", aka belief, will try to convince that if you change what you're up to, that you'll be a "fraud" or a "failure".
The ego loves creating drama. It feeds on drama. And one of the easiest ways to keep the drama going is by firmly adhering to belief systems.
I haven't met anyone that I consider to be a shinning example of health who hasn't, at some point in time, had to drop their belief of how things "should be" to get real health results.
So leave the beliefs behind and share your actual experiences. No one gives an ish about your beliefs anyway. We're all here to get results, not join a cult.
If you feel strongly about a vehicle to health here's what I'd suggest you do:
1) Present your story clearly in a non-threatening manner.
2) Include measurable things people can do to get the same results as you. Again, measurable is the key word!
3) Accept the reality that some people may not be interested in what you have to say, (based on their experiences or beliefs).
4) Accept the reality that not everyone is going to succeed based on your protocol even if they do give it a try.
You feel me?
Update
Lot of great comments and questions to this thread. Thanks everyone for taking the time to read it and share your thoughts. I've addressed a few things here, I'll certainly address some more later today.
1) This post is not an attack on the 80/10/10 lifestyle. Or a post in favor or against taking supplements. I'm simply using examples for conversation purposes.
2) There are a few comments that make it seem like I wrote this post for GI2MR durianrider. This post has nothing to do with him. This post is about the nature of identifying with beliefs and how it doesn't support discussion.
3) Someone ask why I feel I need to eat cooked food. That doesn't make sense to me because 1) I don't and 2) I didn't mention anything about cooked food in this post.
4) Another comment was made that some of my statements shared here would be considered beliefs. Statements like the following:
"There are so many unique situations and so many exceptions to "the rule".
This comment is based on my personal experience. Yes, you could say it is a belief. I'm certainly not attached to it though.
5) "Am I attacking beliefs with this post? Do I think they are wrong?" No. If it wasn't so late last night I would have added the following statement in:
There's nothing wrong with having beliefs. It's a natural part of being human. The real challenge comes when you become attached to your beliefs. When you think that they always will apply to everyone. Maintain all the beliefs you want.
6) "Is the word believe banned from GI2MR?" No. Just notice how you use it and why. What are you really trying to say by bringing in your beliefs? Can you expand on the matter in a way that helps people get a better understanding for your frame of mind?
7) "Is this post encouraging people not to discuss matters out?" No. In fact just the exact opposite. I want people to talk out matters. I want people to discuss health. That's why this site is here.
What I'm saying is that when the word "believe" enters the conversation from a place where people are attached to their beliefs, it often halts the forward mobility and exploration of a good discussion.
8) "If we don't include beliefs would conversations simple stick to the facts?" No. Again, I'm not talking about not having beliefs. I'm just saying you can't rely on just your beliefs to build discussion. It would be better to share your personal experiences that shaped those beliefs and focus on tangible things that others could do to replicate those results.
"I don't believe in supplements. I don't believe in eating meat. I don't believe in cacao. I don't believe in juicing. I don't believe in taking B12. I don't believe kids should be raw. I don't believe in this or that..."
What the hell do your beliefs have to do with anything?
First off: The nature of a belief is that it is inherently limited. Beliefs are based on individual experiences, yet people use them in an attempt to blanketly define the experiences of others.
Let's take the following statement: "I don't believe in taking supplements."
What does that statement even mean? Either you take supplements or you don't. Either you've had success with supplements or you haven't. What does your belief have to do with anything?
Here's the thing about that statement. When someone says "I don't believe in taking supplements" what they really mean is, "Based on my personal experiences (this includes my research, etc) I've found that supplements are not needed to maintain excellent health. I feel so strongly about this statement and in the validity of my experiences, that I feel this also applies to the lives other people too."
It's that last part of the statement, the "other people", that makes beliefs meaningless and also deeply limiting when it comes to health.
If I asked you whether or not you believe in gravity, what would you say?
I have a feeling you'd laugh at the question. Why? Because it's meaningless. What does belief have to do with gravity? Your experience has shown you gravity is present. You don't need to believe in gravity, you simple need to observe your experiences. Whether or not you believe in it... it still exists! It's there. You witness it, you don't need to believe it.
Here's why I'm using the example of gravity. If you really feel as strongly about your experiences as you feel about gravity, then stick to telling your story and stick to the facts. Enlighten other people with how you got your results!
Present your story clearly and include measurable things people can do to get the same results as you. Measurable is the key word!
If you are thriving on a diet without supplements (sticking with the example), I'm not interested in what your beliefs are, but rather your actual results:
* How long have you been eating this way?
* Have you ever tried a raw diet on supplements? If so how would you compare the experience?
* What indicators do you use to measure your health success?
* What would be some simple tests that you recommend that I could do to see if I get similar results
* etc, etc
Based on your reply, it's up to me to either try to accept and reproduce your results or say to myself, "This person's experience may be valid for them, but based on my experiences I don't feel it will be valid for me."
No argument. No need to fight over the "truth".
Either people will want to try what you recommend or they won't. If they don't, fuck it. That's up to them. All you can do is focus on presenting your information clearly in a way that's non-treating. In a way that isn't trying to "convert" anyone.
I use the word "convert" because that's what many beliefs try to get you to do. They try to convert others into a way of looking at the world.
A belief is an attachment to an idea, a way of thinking. And when a group of beliefs combine together they form an attachment to a sense of identity.
Because you believe in x, y, and z, you think of yourself as a _________ (fill in the blank).
You think of yourself as....
* a raw foodist
* a 80/10/10-er
* a vegan
* a fruitarian
* and so on...
Of course there's nothing wrong with eating a vegan diet, or eating raw foods, or focusing on maintaining an 80/10/10 balance. Where the challenge comes in is when you start seeing everything that happens, including the experiences of others, through the eyes of that particular identity. You see everything through the eyes of your beliefs.
The world of health is not governed by beliefs. There are so many unique situations and so many exceptions to "the rule". There are so many factors that play into the success of one's health. Even though I've only been eating raw food for the last 7 years, I've already seen hundreds of examples of this.
It's time to leave beliefs out of the equation when it comes to discussing health. Not only is the discussion of beliefs not productive, but it's almost always at the root of well intentioned discussions that morph into personal attacks. People fighting and arguing over the "truth".
On a deeper note, I've seen so many people run into challenges over the years because they've been so attached to particular beliefs. They believe more in their belief than they do in getting results. And their health suffers because of it.
When you become fixated on your beliefs and your identity, your ego tries to do two things:
1) It tries to make other people wrong so that your story is strengthened. If other people are wrong than you must obvious be right. This makes the ego feel great.
2) It tries to scare you into not accepting change. If you see that your current health regimen isn't working or needs to be tweaked, your ego's attachment to a "way of doing things", aka belief, will try to convince that if you change what you're up to, that you'll be a "fraud" or a "failure".
The ego loves creating drama. It feeds on drama. And one of the easiest ways to keep the drama going is by firmly adhering to belief systems.
I haven't met anyone that I consider to be a shinning example of health who hasn't, at some point in time, had to drop their belief of how things "should be" to get real health results.
So leave the beliefs behind and share your actual experiences. No one gives an ish about your beliefs anyway. We're all here to get results, not join a cult.
If you feel strongly about a vehicle to health here's what I'd suggest you do:
1) Present your story clearly in a non-threatening manner.
2) Include measurable things people can do to get the same results as you. Again, measurable is the key word!
3) Accept the reality that some people may not be interested in what you have to say, (based on their experiences or beliefs).
4) Accept the reality that not everyone is going to succeed based on your protocol even if they do give it a try.
You feel me?
Update
Lot of great comments and questions to this thread. Thanks everyone for taking the time to read it and share your thoughts. I've addressed a few things here, I'll certainly address some more later today.
1) This post is not an attack on the 80/10/10 lifestyle. Or a post in favor or against taking supplements. I'm simply using examples for conversation purposes.
2) There are a few comments that make it seem like I wrote this post for GI2MR durianrider. This post has nothing to do with him. This post is about the nature of identifying with beliefs and how it doesn't support discussion.
3) Someone ask why I feel I need to eat cooked food. That doesn't make sense to me because 1) I don't and 2) I didn't mention anything about cooked food in this post.
4) Another comment was made that some of my statements shared here would be considered beliefs. Statements like the following:
"There are so many unique situations and so many exceptions to "the rule".
This comment is based on my personal experience. Yes, you could say it is a belief. I'm certainly not attached to it though.
5) "Am I attacking beliefs with this post? Do I think they are wrong?" No. If it wasn't so late last night I would have added the following statement in:
There's nothing wrong with having beliefs. It's a natural part of being human. The real challenge comes when you become attached to your beliefs. When you think that they always will apply to everyone. Maintain all the beliefs you want.
6) "Is the word believe banned from GI2MR?" No. Just notice how you use it and why. What are you really trying to say by bringing in your beliefs? Can you expand on the matter in a way that helps people get a better understanding for your frame of mind?
7) "Is this post encouraging people not to discuss matters out?" No. In fact just the exact opposite. I want people to talk out matters. I want people to discuss health. That's why this site is here.
What I'm saying is that when the word "believe" enters the conversation from a place where people are attached to their beliefs, it often halts the forward mobility and exploration of a good discussion.
8) "If we don't include beliefs would conversations simple stick to the facts?" No. Again, I'm not talking about not having beliefs. I'm just saying you can't rely on just your beliefs to build discussion. It would be better to share your personal experiences that shaped those beliefs and focus on tangible things that others could do to replicate those results.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Raw Vegan Steven on -
LOLOL
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Permalink Reply by Raw Vegan Steven on
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very nice point... :)
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Permalink Reply by Sheryl <--the original! on -
I have several questions for you durianrider. Why is 100% raw vegan so vital to you? what is the difference between 90% and 100% raw vegan, how much of this do you know from your own experience? why is nothing else exceptable?
as you said...just curious...
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Permalink Reply by Sheryl <--the original! on
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interesting, i like!
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Permalink Reply by sunnied on -
Same here! One extreme to the other, always have been. Before raw I was drinking heavily and eating pills every weekend.
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Permalink Reply by Brent on -
I know for me, I believe a 100% raw vegan diet is not ideal because David Wolfe said it wasn't... that I (given my special circumstances) needed some cooked food and some animal products. But that is just me. I may be an exception to the rule. I know I wanted to be 100% but I trust David and so I abide by his suggestions.
I hope one day things will change...
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Permalink Reply by 1 Raw Girl on
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Right On!
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Permalink Reply by Sheryl <--the original! on
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Dhrumil, man you hit the nail on the head with this one. I TRULEY ADMIRE YOUR WORDS! I've been mulling over this issue for the past 2 years in my mind. I used to work with a holistic healer and i no longer work with her because of this! Your very right, results is what matters most and truth, being truthful in our minds first then verbally expressing "truth" (not belief) is what will heal us. I believe this genuinely, down to my core! I make a strong effort to NEVER express an incomplete statement on this site. I think its so important for me to express my own experiences than to tell people what i'm learned/seen other people do. i'm not gonna say read X, do X without talking about the results i've experienced.
There is no truth in 3rd hand experience and half ass comments to me!!!!!!!!!
"They believe more in their belief than they do in getting results", if we ever meet please remind me to discuss this sentence further with you.
I love the environment (GITMR) that you've created for us to share and grow in but this is a world (while its virtual) its like any other in the sense that people come into it with with a bag of shit to splash on the wall. I really really hate when i come here to see whats going on and participate and i come across conversations where people are saying crazy/ nonsensical shit.
for example if some brings up a topic like...What should i do to fix _________(fill in blank)? As I am about to express my personal experience with the topic...i'll glance at a comment someone would write that would drive me friggin nuts...(e.i 80/10/10) now what the FUCK does that mean? thats NOT a damn answer to the question!!!! some choose to regurgitated SHIT..moronic/absurd incomplete answers. Please form proper sentences and thoughts, don't tell me...raw, 80/10/10, fats, etc. What specifically is it, how do you know about X, how did X help you? what is about X that will fix X?!?!...built onto the conversation!
I brought up a topic in the general chat recently and someone gave me an answer that really drove me friggin nuts. The answer i was given came off very threatening (not that i was it just read that way). It felt like the person was unknowingly trying to insult my intelligence. my saying X (it was literally a 3/word/number answer)...no elaboration..nothing! The comment left me high and dry and mostly irritated!
Most of us that are on this site have very interesting backgrounds and we are (mostly) very well rounded in many areas. So when a topic is brought up important to not come off like...well your uneducated cause when i ask a question and i say "X" i'm suppose to know exactly what "x" encompasses in your experience!
its moronic!
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Permalink Reply by Sheryl <--the original! on
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i disagree with you Ryan. If a topic is going on and someone doesn't think it works...but they have no experience with it. THEY HAVE NO RIGHT PARTICIPATING IN THE CONVERSATION and passing along what they believe is not/won't work as a fact of not working. It's like a group of neurosurgeons having a conversation about spinal tap and here comes a garbage truck driver with no experience, knowledge or first hand encounter with said topic jumping into the conversation saying well this and that doesn't work.
IT'S STUPID!
Personally I don't give a shit what anyone thinks doesn't work. I want to know what doesn't/didn't work for you. Don't tell me what you think won't work either. Stick to the facts. Facts make things flow!
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Permalink Reply by kayell on -
"And, if someone opens a discussion on, yes, a supplement, and, we can share a lot of information as to it's pros (or cons) from other sources, and share information about it that some might have been unaware of, are we banned from discussing it just because we haven't taken it ourselves?"
Esp. since the reason we don't have any experience with it may be because we've learned things that are negative about the (whatever).
I wouldn't feel like I couldn't/shouldn't give advice to someone considering heroin just because I haven't ever used it. And the advice that person could get from someone with experience would likely consist of either "Hey man, it's great, gotta try it" or "Don't do it. Damn near killed me" or variations there of, and which point it turns into what the listener wants to "believe."
Personally I'm of the "more information is better" camp, and will look at it all, although I certainly have biases about how I determine what information if more likely valid.*
*Scientific research based (China Study for example)
I think that it is also valid to talk about the philosophical reasons behind a belief - for instance my belief that it is generally best to live as close as possible to how we as wild animals would have lived, or that I believe that the profit motive should be considered. It doesn't mean that anyone has to agree with me, but surely we all have the right to express our reasons for choosing certain paths.
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Chimps, bonobos and orangs eat a lot of fruit, but there is good evidence that chimps have dental adaptations to eat meat, but they can also do without it.
Dorothy - I know it is hard to keep up with. I was referring to the post about your husband and dogs. It was just very sweet. :)
Chimps eat fruit (mainly) vegetation (rarely) and insects (even more rarely) and smaller monkeys (when available) but they are not -strict- fruititarians.
"I have seen young children pull the wings off of butterflies for fun"
Yeah, but not for food, they didn't eat them did they?
well said Blu.
Ani Phyo has a recipe for Chocolate Hazelnut Mylk:
1/2 c. hazelnuts
2 T. black sesame seeds
2 T. cacao nibs
1/2 c. pitted dates
pinch sea salt
5 c. water
blend!
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